"It's a black thing. Crackers only understand if they buy a bag of misrepresented facts." (*)
A study shows that white folks would give up TV only for a million bucks, but would change their "race" to "black" for merely $1,000. You would think that this shows that white people are not very racist. But then, if you concluded that, you wouldn't be one of those people who sees racism every where. Of course if white people required $100 million to become "black", these "RACISM!" criers would interpret that as racist as well. But instead they're left with an opposite fact: whites don't much care if they got transformed into black folks. This leaves the RACISM! criers to figure out a way to interpret this finding as demonstrating what they already know: honkies are a bunch of racists.
Here's how they interpret the findings showing white ambivalence (read: non-racism) :"white folks don’t understand the Black experience." In other words, if these all-knowing black folks can just fill the heads of these ignorant white folks with a bunch of well-spun facts, those crackers will want more than just a measly $1,000 to turn black! For example, black folks earn less money than whites! They die at younger ages! They make less money! They pay more for insurance! So these data-spinners devise a hypothetical nation, one divided into two groups, one that makes less money, dies earlier, pays more for insurance, etc., and viola! The same crackers when ignorant of "the facts" who would require only $1,000 to become black now, with their heads filled with "the truth", want $1 million! And not only that, this new figure represents white support for "slavery reparations." (**)
Of course black folks in the US die younger on average than white folks; on average they make poorer health choices, regarding diet and exercise. Of course black folks in the US on average make less money than white folks; on average they make poorer economic choices, in terms of decisions to study and stay in school, whether to attend college and what majors to choose, etc. And of course blacks on average pay more for car and house insurance than whites in the US; blacks on average are choosing at a much higher rate than whites to commit the crimes covered by insurance, and thus more likely to reside in areas with elevated rates of these crimes. Black and white folks who make the same health and financial choices reap the same results, and who live in neighborhoods with similar crime rates pay similar insurance rates. This is why so many blacks immigrate here, and so few ever leave.
(*) Plenty of black folks reject this nonsense ("uncle toms", "sellouts"), and plenty of whites embrace it (the nearly half the white population who votes democrat). I am raising my negro daughter to be one of those sell-out aunt jermimas. Her grades in school in the 6th grade were a very high 3.9; in the 7th grade they dropped to 2.1. The white teachers didn't suddenly discover that she was black and start unfairly treating her. Instead, she changed her behavior, in a way that will lead to low income in addition to low grades.
(**) No word on reparations from black African groups whose ancestors enslaved and sold the black ancestors of today's black Americans, or on reparations from Italy, France, and Norway for the successive conquests by their ancestors of the ancestors of today's Britain, or on reparations from Morocco's government for their ancestors' conquest of Spain and Italy, or of reparations from Egpyt for conquering Ethiopia and Nubia some generations ago. Nadir should surely expect reparatrions from Britain for its historical conquest and subjugation of his Irish ancestors as well... though some of Nadir's Irish ancestors enslaved some of his African ancestors... and some of his African ancestors enslaved and otherwise conquered other black Africans... I don't know how all of this will work out. Will my daughter get just half reparations for her African ancestors?
2007-07-03
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49 comments:
Paul,
Your race-baiting continues. My post didn't accuse white folks of "racism". It accused white folks of not understanding the Black experience, or understanding the hardships that are endured by the great majority of Blacks. Many of these obstacles are a legacy of slavery, Jim Crow and discrimination. Your post once again proves that you don't understand this.
"For example, black folks earn less money than whites!"
This is a direct legacy of slavery and discrimination. Of course, this is not true of all Blacks, but on average, Black workers wages are lower than those of white workers with identical education and experience. This has been documented in studies. This is true of hired employees, and it is true of entrepreneurs on average.
When the Eisenhower interstate system was built, Black business districts were destroyed in many US cities when planners ran new highways through the heart of Black wealth generating areas. This was on top of the fact that slavery already accounts for a lower wealth and asset ratio compared to whites.
Integration then killed much Black wealth because white businesses took a lot of business from Black companies. This legacy means that our parents had less wealth to pass on to the next generation to help us build for the future.
This has started to change in the past 20 years, though we are starting from a position of relative economic weakness. Therefore, it just takes more work to achieve the same levels of wealth.
Again, there is the adage that a Black person must work twice as hard to be considered half as good. I think this still holds true in most areas except perhaps sports and hip hop.
Education also affects Black wages. Unequal educational opportunities brought on by schools that are funded based on class rather than equality is a big factor here.
Schools in urban districts have fewer resources than many of their suburban counterparts. In districts like Detroit, poor management of resources is to blame for a lot of the problem. Is this management a result of the fewer educational opportunities itself? Tough to say.
Of course, whites like Paul and some recipients of affirmative action like Clarence Thomas and Ward Connerly believe that Blacks should be stripped of affirmative action programs that seek to help balance this history.
I await any data showing that blacks, Asian immigrants, and whites with similar education and other factors have different average incomes.
Here is the data Paul..
The problem with you is that you simply don't WANT to believe it..
http://www.womenscouncil.org/documents/FAQs/Education%20and%20Earnings.pdf
Some more data for you.
http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/ETI/drago.htm
http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/ETI/drago.htm
This paper claims that income differences between blacks and whites in Milwakee can be explained only partially by education differences. However, this study fails to usefully consider education, as it measures only number of years completed, thus treating as equal a person who completed high school at a prep academy with a high GPA with a person who barely graduated from a very poor high school; and a person who received an engineering degree from a major university with a person who received a social work degree from a regional commuter school.
Why does the prep school grad earn more than the poorly educated person? Why does the engineer earn more than the social worker? According to this study, if these people belong to different "races", then racism must explain these income differences!
Again I ask of Nadir and Steve -- who absolutely know with 100% certainty that racism in 2007 USA prevents blacks (and perhaps Asians?) from obtaining equal income as whites with credentials, abilities, and work habits from obtaining equal income -- to present one scrap of evidence to support this conclusion that they have reached and repeatedly announce.
Unlike them, I actually scrutinized this claim, which I used to make just like them. However, when I failed to find any evidence, I actually realized that, and came to discard my previous view, discovering that my view was a mere unexamined assumption.
http://www.womenscouncil.org/documents/FAQs/Education%20and%20Earnings.pdf
This study also fails to distinguish types of education, though it does include figures for Asians, who beat honkies if both have masters degrees. Is this because anti-white racism is holding down crackers? Or is it because Asians have on average behaviors that give them an income advantage over the average behaviors of honkies. For example: selecting higher quality graduate programs, and working harder as students in those programs?
None of these studies should give any black kids any cause for concern as they make smart choices in life: they have no reason to believe that they will earn any less than anybody else in the USA with the same credentials and work ethic.
I know how much the truth about race in America offends you Hue but there is ample evidence of continuing and endemic discrimination and unequal treatment toward black people who HAVE PLAYED BY THE RULES AND BELIEVE IN THE AMERICAN DREAM.
Recognizing these realities does not make one a "victim" as the righties mindlessly rant, but it helps you understand that the fight is still on..
I tell my sons every day that no one can stop you but you. That doesn't mean that many won't try..
Blatant discrimination is a continuing problem in the labor market. Perhaps the most convincing evidence comes from "audit" studies, in which white and minority (or male and female) job seekers are given similar resumes and sent to the same set of firms to apply for a job. These studies often find that employers are less likely to interview or offer a job to minority applicants and to female applicants. (32)
Less direct evidence on discrimination comes from comparisons of earnings of blacks and whites, or males and females. (33) Even after adjusting for characteristics that affect earnings (such as years of education and work experience), these studies typically find that blacks and women are paid less than their white male counterparts. The average income for Hispanic women with college degrees is less than the average for white men with high school degrees. (34)
Last year alone, the Federal government received over 90,000 complaints of employment discrimination. Moreover 64,423 complaints were filed with state and local Fair Employment Practices Commissions, bringing the total last year to over 154,000. Thousands of other individuals filed complaints alleging racially motivated violence and discrimination in housing, voting, and public accommodations, to name just a few.
Results from Random Testing
The marked differences in economic status between blacks and whites, and between men and women, clearly have social and economic causes in addition to discrimination. One respected method to isolate the prevalence of discrimination is to use random testing, in which individuals compete for the same job, apartment, or other goal. For example, the Fair Employment Council of Greater Washington, Inc., conducted a series of tests between 2000 and 2002. The tests revealed that blacks were treated significantly worse than equally qualified whites 24 percent of the time and Latinos were treated worse than whites 22 percent of the time. Some examples document the disparities:
Two pairs of male testers visited the offices of a nationally-franchised employment agency on two different days. The black tester in each pair received no job referrals. In contrast, the white testers who appeared minutes later were interviewed by the agency, coached on interviewing techniques, and referred to and offered jobs as switchboard operators.
A black female tester applied for employment at a major hotel chain in Virginia where she was told that she would be called if they wished to pursue her application. Although she never received a call, her equally qualified white counterpart appeared a few minutes later, was told about a vacancy for a front desk clerk, later interviewed, and offered the job.
A black male tester asked about an ad for a sales position at a Maryland car dealership. He was told that the way to enter the business would be to start by washing cars. However, his white counterpart, with identical credentials, was immediately interviewed for the sales job.
A suburban Maryland company advertised for a typist/receptionist. When a black tester applied for the position, she was interviewed but heard nothing further. When an identically qualified white tester was interviewed, the employer offered her a better position that paid more than the receptionist job and that provided tuition assistance. Follow up calls by the black tester elicited no response eventhough the white tester refused the offer.
A GAO audit study uncovered significant discrimination against Hispanic testers. Hispanic testers received 25 percent fewer job interviews, and 34 percent fewer job offers than other testers. In one glaring example of discrimination, a Hispanic tester was told that a "counter help" job at a lunch service company had been filled. Two hours later, an Anglo tester was offered the job.
Steve: The matched pair testing described in this report is valid; the "college degree" data isn't, because, as we've discussed before, your computer science degree from MIT doesn't have the same value as my social work degree from Wayne State.
Please provide the citation for the matched-pair data.
Racial discrimination is, and I believe should be, illegal, violating criminal and civil laws. In each of these cases described individuals should have been arrested, and companies assessed stiff fines and subjected to civil action.
If these matched pair data indicate the reality of the US in 2007, it should be very easy to document that black and white mechanical engineers with similar GPAS from the same universities make widely different salaries, and that black engineers should have a much more difficult time finding jobs than white. I should expect to encounter black telephone operators, car dealers, and hotel reception clerks at levels far below their fraction of the general applicant pool in any metro area. However, that is not my experience.
I am very curious to know more about this data. Why do all of the people in my vast network of friends who have professional degrees all have very, very nice jobs, with no time spent complaining about the difficulty in obtaining and maintaining employment? Why do my friends spend their time instead discussion what to do with all their money, in what to invest? Even in the midst of Detroit's economic implosion, with people all around me getting laid off, my enormous circle of friends has diminished only due to people leaving Detroit to get jobs elsewhere -- invariably at higher salaries!
Meanwhile all the black folks that I know who are doing poorly (and I know plenty of such people) have lives marked by bade decisions and low effort levels. Non-racial factors easily explain their lack of financial stability.
OK, so maybe my original view of this issue -- a view that 100% matches that of yours and Nadir's -- was correct, and modern USA is overrun by anti-black racism. So please provide a citation for that study you presented, which contain data that flatly refute my perception and careful, open-minded analysis of reality.
Here's the study.
http://clinton2.nara.gov/WH/EOP/OP/html/aa/aa04.html
One question.
Why is it that whenever you want to claim the absence of white racism you site how well your black friends are doing but in order to justify white hostility toward blacks you claim that "blacks need to get their acts together".
Consisency is not a hallmark of the right.
Hue, Madam CJ Walker was one of the richest Americans at the turn of the 20th Century.
She had servants, mansions, luxury vehicles and international vacations.
Did her success negate the fact that millions of blacks in America lived under the horrors of racial oppression.
I mean, when you cut to the chase, your argument is just plain silly.
nadir
Ever notice how with righties like Hue black crime statistics are cut and dried.
No factoring in of education, poverty, family status...etc...
Blacks are just pathological and make poor choices.
But when they are show stats and studies which show endmic discrimination and inequality toward blacks, then he twists himself into contortions attempting to split hairs.
It's sometimes hilarious to watch.
But often infuriating as well.
Steve: You believe that white people are more prone than blacks to make poor choices, in that they choose to behave in racist ways, to deprive themselves of good employees and customers due to racial discrimination. I certainly agree with you that has been the case in the past, for several centuries. So if white people can, as a group, for some period of time, exhibit a lower average rate of decision-making success, can't other so-called races of people also display such a flaw?
When it comes to mass murder and serial murder, white people these days in the US are statistically much more likely than blacks to commit these crimes. When it comes to studying hard in high school and picking quality courses, Asian kids on average make better choices than white kids. At least that's my conclusion.
I believe that different groups of people are exhibiting different rates of choices. You believe that all "races" are making exactly the same average choices, except for white people, who are choosing to be racist.
In any case, I addressed your presentation of facts, but you ignored my reaction. Please face my request for the citation of your matched-pair sociological investigations, and explain why it is that on the one hand you find a huge population of super successful black folks in the US, yet that study reports that black qualified black folks routinely get denied all manner of opportunities.
I just deleted Steve's response to my request for a citation and counter to my argument. Instead of doing either he just called me a racist.
"I believe that different groups of people are exhibiting different rates of choices."
So you believe that an upper middle class black child like my son for instance is more likely to make a poor life decision than a upper middle class white child?
Why?
"You believe that all "races" are making exactly the same average choices, except for white people, who are choosing to be racist."
This is just plain stupid.
Races don't make choices, individuals do.
And I don't believe all or most white people are racist.
But there are still too many, in places of authority no less.
And their bigotry and hatred affects the lives of others.
By the way, I produced the link to the study a couple of posts back.
Are you trying to play some sort of game?
Steve writes: =============
So you believe that an upper middle class black child like my son for instance is more likely to make a poor life decision than a upper middle class white child?
============================
I believe that if your son and the sons of Asian and white parents make the same choices, they will obtain approximately the same outcomes.
However, on average, among upper middle class populations, Asian teens study more hours and take higher quality classes, than white kids. This trend might even describe lower class Asian kids compared to upper class white kids, though I don't remember for sure.
You posted two links, neither of which presented your excerpts describing matched pair investigations.
I reposted each of your two citations, and commented on them; neither contained the matched pair investigations.
Steve writes: ==========
"You believe that all "races" are making exactly the same average choices, except for white people, who are choosing to be racist." This is just plain stupid. Races don't make choices, individuals do.
==================
OK, then change my term "race" to "aggregate average of members of each so-called race". You agree, surely, that a much higher fraction of whites than other "races" attend NASCAR events, and that a much higher fraction of blacks than other "races" attend step shows. You also must agree that whereas whites compose about 60% of the US population, they account for a much higher fraction of serial killings, mass murders, and DUIs. Thus in those areas whites are, on average, making poorer choices than Asians and blacks.
Is it possible that, on average, blacks, in some areas of life, may make poorer choices than others in 2007 USA?
"I believe that if your son and the sons of Asian and white parents make the same choices, they will obtain approximately the same outcomes."
That's not what I asked you and I knew that you would try to finesse.
You claim that "groups" make decisions, so do middle class blacks make worse decisions than middle class whites?
And if so, how?
"However, on average, among upper middle class populations, Asian teens study more hours and take higher quality classes, than white kids. This trend might even describe lower class Asian kids compared to upper class white kids, though I don't remember for sure."
You couldn't any of this if your life depended on it.
You are all about stereotypes and it's downright sickening.
"OK, then change my term "race" to "aggregate average of members of each so-called race". You agree, surely, that a much higher fraction of whites than other "races" attend NASCAR events, and that a much higher fraction of blacks than other "races" attend step shows. You also must agree that whereas whites compose about 60% of the US population, they account for a much higher fraction of serial killings, mass murders, and DUIs. Thus in those areas whites are, on average, making poorer choices than Asians and blacks."
This is just downright stupid.
Are there a higher percentages of blacks who get involved in stupid, street violence and gun interplay?
Yes. I will venture to say in urban centers with high hispanic populations the rates are similar.
Throughout the world urban violence is perpetuated by poor, young uneducated males of every hue.
Look at the out of control violence in Moscow.
Now who are the people committing insurance fraud, S&L scandals, pension embezzlement, forgery, stock fraud, etc...
I bet the percentage of whites vis-a-vis people of color are astronomical.
You will see far more violence and street crime among Southern whites than northern whites.
Why? More poor southern whites.
Why don't you answer my question?
Is a middle class black more likely to commit and violent crime or make a poor life decision than his white counterpart?
And if so, why?
Leave the Asians out.
Answer THAT question.
Yes, I agree that a higher fraction of whites than blacks are committing S&L and other types of fraud. These are bad choices.
Yes, the same studies that show among middle class people Asian kids make better academic choices than whites, also show that white kids on average make better academic choices than black kids. We discussed the most famous of these studies, regarding the suburb in Ohio, conducted by the African sociologist. He showed that the black kids had a much lower rate of selecting AP courses, and that this was the best-predictive factor in SAT scores and college success.
I do not recall crime figures for middle class black and white youths, so I do not profess to know if one group or the other is more likely to commit street crimes.
You're still splitting hairs in a cheap ratrionalization for racism.
Criminality is no more a problem among blacks than it is among whites. Just different types of crime directly associated with economic status.
You're not going to see an educated black man engaging in a driveby any more than you are going to a southern redneck engaging in a pension fraud scam.
"I do not recall crime figures for middle class black and white youths, so I do not profess to know if one group or the other is more likely to commit street crimes."
But both are members of "groups" and "groups" make choices, according to you.
Race drives everything in the minds of racists.
Steve writes: =============
You're not going to see an educated black man engaging in a driveby any more than you are going to a southern redneck engaging in a pension fraud scam.
===========================
Agreed.
Steve writes: ==============
"I do not recall crime figures for middle class black and white youths, so I do not profess to know if one group or the other is more likely to commit street crimes." But both are members of "groups" and "groups" make choices, according to you.
===========================
Groups comprise individuals, individuals make choices, and produce an average for the group. If statistics on crimes exist for white and black youth belonging to middle class families, they will show group average rates for arrests and convictions of various crimes, and we can compare the rates and then see if one group makes better average choices in regard to street crimes.
Studies we have discussed before show that middle class black kids have a lower rate of selecting AP courses in high school, even when they have equal access to such classes. I will not speculate on which "race" group has a higher rate of choosing to commit street crimes, but I will speculate that black kids who take AP classes and white kids who take AP classes have the same rates of street crimes and that these two racial groups who avoid AP classes also have the same rate of committing street crime.
Steve writes: ===================
Race drives everything in the minds of racists.
=================================
I agree. This is why the racists who support Bonds accuse his detractors of racism, and why racists who see that one racial group has higher incomes than another believe that the reason is one group's racist domination of the other, rather than the result of individual choices within each group.
"Groups comprise individuals, individuals make choices, and produce an average for the group."
But "groups" are comprised by more than skin color.
I submit that behavior is not driven by race but by many other factors.
"If statistics on crimes exist for white and black youth belonging to middle class families, they will show group average rates for arrests and convictions of various crimes, and we can compare the rates and then see if one group makes better average choices in regard to street crimes."
What does your gut tell you Hue?
Be honest.
You believe that race drives behavior, intelligence, and achievement.
Your every utterance attests to this.
You know the funny thing?
My own wife, sister, brother-in-law and mother sound just like you.
They all are high achievers, hard workers, and law abiding citizens who constantly complain that "WE are going backwards", "Why can't WE do better, "Why do WE constantly screw up?".
Black people are the only group of folks in the world who are defined by our ne'er do wells and failures.
No other group deals with that or does it to themselves.
This phenomenon is a direct result of the racist stigmatation and demonization that has been heaped upon us since our first contact with whites.
Our "group" constantly has to face this hatred, caricaturization and stereotyping regardless of what our values and accomplishments as individuals are.
It affects how we live, how we are viewed, how we're hired, how we are lended to, evaluated on our jobs, graded by teachers, approached by cops, and on and on.
Yeah sure, you'll admit that more whites use and deal drugs and are mass murderers but that doesn't define your "group", does it?
Most African-Americans are law abiding, hard working people yet we are supposed to accept your characterization of us as "whiners and thugs who make poor choices" simply because the percentage of street criminals is higher in the black community than in white community?
No nuances, economic or social factors are to be considered?
Your views are proof postive of American racism.
If you are black, there is a target on your back.
Steve: I do not believe that black or white "n'r do wells" define ether of those groups. Instead I simply believe that in 2007 USA the average differences in these groups are best explained not by outside factors, but by the net effect of the individual choices within those groups. I have too many "black" friends buying and selling houses at will in white neighborhoods (for their own residence) and in black (as rentals) to believe that when my daughters wants to buy a house that anything besides their income and credit school will come into consideration.
That does not mean that lending and housing discrimination doesn't happen on a regular basis.
You crack me up with your inconsistencies.
Your stats and percentages are infallible when it comes to proving that blacks are MORE problematic and prone to poor choices than whites and asians..
But when stats and reports show that black people, regardless of choices and accomplishments, STILL face discrimination in every aspect of life, you dismiss them with anecdotes about your "black" friends.
Do you really expect me to believe that someone with your toxic attitude about blacks really has black friends, let alone a black wife?
You have yet to provide "stats and reports [that] show that black people, regardless of choices and accomplishments, STILL face discrimination in every aspect of life". Instead you presented a single uncited study where some matched-pairs of blacks experienced a very different and negative outcome compared to a white control.
You have not shown any statistical matched-pair studies, such as white and black males with computer science degrees and GPAs over 3.2 from a top-50 rated university and their ensuing average salaries at 1, 5, 10, and 15 years after graduation.
You have presented many studies showing that "blacks with college degrees have lower salaries than whites with college degrees." However, if blacks on average select college majors with lower average salaries (education, social work, criminal justice) at a significantly higher rate than whites, this statistic fails to meet the "matched pair" requirement, and cannot possibly indicate that blacks have lower salaries due to anti-black racism.
You status as a black person with mostly black friends your entire life, and mine as a white person with mostly black friends my entire life (both of us with black wives and children), is relevant in certain ways. For example, if we both come accross a study purporting that "black people, regardless of choices and accomplishments, STILL face discrimination in every aspect of life," we have some basis for assessing that assertion based on our life experiences and observations. You may feel that you see black folks all the time working hard, selecting meaningful majors, studying, attending to their credit and other financial affairs, and constantly getting denied jobs and promotions, mortgages that they can afford, service at nice restaurants, insurance rates comparable to white folks living in neighborhoods with similar rates of crime; your time spent over the years in high crime, low income black neighborhoods (as a visitor or resident) demonstrates that these areas are typified by people who do close to their very best with the opportunities and circumstances presented them, devoting their time to improving themselves, maintaining themselves, and respecting themselves and each other in a collegian manner, but that despite their best efforts, they simply get turned down by racist white people, who hold all the cards in this world. Thus you would have good reason to believe that such a study is very sound, and that it's data and setup accurately depict the world.
I on the other hand have just as much of a personal accumulation of first-hand experiences with which compare with any such study. Unlike you, my views on these matters have changed over the years. My personal reactions to these studies now contradict each other; I see uncountable numbers of black folks in my daily life over the ears working hard and making smart choices, and all of them achieve for themselves marvelous, prosperous, safe, and productive lives, with no problems getting the same mortgages, insurance policies, public accommodations, jobs, promotions, and raises that I do. In fact, most of my friends are professionally and financially more successful then me, and they set an obvious example to me for increasing my rate of success: emulating their behavior, their choices.
Meanwhile, since as long as I can remember I have spent considerable amounts of time in the poorest ghettos of whatever city I have lived in, due to spending time with the families of my friends, and due to my other travels (such as becoming involved with the families of students that I work with, and also simply becoming friends with people who still live in such environments). I have found that the explanation for why so much poverty and crime exists in these areas derives simply from the free choices of the people who live there. The residents I have known who have made smart choices inevitably work their way out and achieve for themselves the lives that I described above; in fact, a majority of my friends in adult life grew up in such circumstances, and have siblings and other relatives still living there. The difference between the successful people and those who remain as negative statistics: daily choices, and important life choices.
This is my perception and conclusion based on personal observation, and studies showing the opposite seem to me upon analysis flawed, and those that confirm this personal conclusion survive my scrutiny.
"You have not shown any statistical matched-pair studies, such as white and black males with computer science degrees and GPAs over 3.2 from a top-50 rated university and their ensuing average salaries at 1, 5, 10, and 15 years after graduation."
Your splitting hairs again trying to justify your racism.
You refuse to answer my question to you which is "Is a middle classed black person more likely to committ a violent crime or make a poor life decision than their white counterpart" because you feel that the black would be more likely to make the poor decision regardless of education or income level and you know that opinion is based on nothing more than racism.
Yet when we show evidence that black people are still being discrminated against, you
THEN want to factor in education level, prestige of school, subject major, etc...
"However, if blacks on average select college majors with lower average salaries (education, social work, criminal justice) at a significantly higher rate than whites, this statistic fails to meet the "matched pair" requirement, and cannot possibly indicate that blacks have lower salaries due to anti-black racism."
That argument isn't going to work Hue.
The studies stated very clearly that the white and black testers had IDENTICAL resumes, education and experience.
Steve writes: ================
You refuse to answer my question to you which is "Is a middle classed black person more likely to commit a violent crime or make a poor life decision than their white counterpart"
==============================
I have answered several times: without data I am left to assume that they would have the same outcomes. I have seen no such data to address this, other than for teenagers, and the black teens had a much higher average of electing not to take AP courses, which I consider to be a poor choice.
Steve writes: ====================
Yet when we show evidence that black people are still being discrminated against, you
THEN want to factor in education level, prestige of school, subject major, etc...
=================================
This is because your study, which you still have yet to cite despite my numerous requests, is not and cannot be the final word on this subject. If indeed matched pair studies of this sort really do in recent times (can you even state when this study was conducted, please?) demonstrate that matched pair blacks constantly get doors slammed on their faces by whites turning down qualified employees and paying customers, then this should result in other sorts of data as well confirming this.
Please provide a citation for this study so that I can examine it myself. Or stop referring to it.
Steve writes: =======================
That argument isn't going to work Hue. The studies stated very clearly that the white and black testers had IDENTICAL resumes, education and experience.
====================================
Then provide the citation and we can discuss it more after I examine it for myself.
If your study is accurate, I am very curious to know why all of my friends have jobs, they all own houses where they want, they all pay the same for insurance that I do, and we all frequently find ourselves dealing with black employees of the same jobs that this study shows black folks getting denied for. Also, it should then be very easy for any economist or social scientist to produce a study demonstrating that these observations of your as-yet uncited study show up in statistical analyses.
HERE'S 3 LINKS HUE.
http://www.blackcommentator.com/137/137_wise_1.html
http://raceandhistory.com/selfnews/viewnews.cgi?newsid1054163061,63019,.shtml
http://www.nathannewman.org/EDIN/.race/.racefile/.jan-feb/.laborfr/.testers.html
What is the reference for the study you quoted where matched pairs applied for jobs, and the black applicants kept getting turned down and the white applicants kept getting hired? Only the third article you posted describes such a study, but again without citing it. It claims that the study showed that black applicants got discriminated three times as often as white, indicating that somehow the whites got discriminated against.
Does this as-yet uncited study who that blacks and whites get discriminated against 30% vs. 10% of the time? Or .3% vs .1% of the time?
I am 100% for identifying and prosecuting racial discrimination, and I do believe that it occurs.
I certainly agree with the claim of the second author, that "reverse discrimination" against whites produces zero net effect. To the contrary, more whites benefit from "affirmative action" than to do whites. Anybody who opposes affirmative action because it harms white people overall has no factual basis for their view. One way that affirmative action "helps" whites is in elite university admissions, where Asian students are rejected in order to artificially make room for more whites, in the name of achieving racial parity with the general population.
From Wise's article: "Among 25-34 year olds, white lawyers, computer programmers, and carpenters earn, on average, about one-fourth more than comparable blacks; white doctors and accountants earn, on average, one-third more than comparable blacks; and even white janitors earn sixteen percent more, on average, than comparable blacks."
Wise does not offer the primary citation of the study here, but does address that Thomas Sowell has accounted for the discrepancies by claiming that studies like this fail to properly match, with the whites living in areas with higher incomes within a particular profession. Without citations to primary data I don't know how to judge these competing claims. I know that Sowell in his books always cites the primary data when presenting his analyses. This is one of the reasons that Sowell influenced me to change my view from that of Steve, Wise, and Nadir, to take the view of Sowell: that although white-on-black discrimination still occurs today in the US, it is not a dominant factor in explaining differences in white-black average incomes. Instead, personal choices dominates, including the choice of what profession to pick and how hard to work at them.
HERE IS THE LINK TO THE STUDY AGAIN HUE.
http://clinton2.nara.gov/WH/EOP/OP/html/aa/aa04.html
Does this obvious evasion and bloviating work for you in your actual life?
Steve: I see that you had posted that citation earlier in this thread, and I apologize for my oversight. The evidence is convincing, and I have no answer for it. I admit that I would have expected that properly controlled matches would have produced nearly identical outcomes, rather than outcomes seperated by 16-24%. Would these results differ now, 15 years later? I will not venture to guess, but I would like to see what would happen.
None the less, I accept these results, and they do change my mind somewhat about the extent of white-on-black racism that remains. These data do not, though, change my conclusion that personal choice dominates the ultimate life outcome of black people today in the US; these data do, though, cause me to believe that anti-black racism is more of an obstacle than I had most recently ascertained.
I know too many black people working in the jobs examined here, and living in the nicest homes, to believe that the fates of black people today rests anywhere but in their own hands, and that through their positive actions, including their constructive choices, remaining white prejudice will continue its inevitable slide. This is not to say that white racism derives from any negative actions on the part of blacks, only that the elimination of white racism is occurring via the actions of black people.
Steve wrote: =====================
Why is it that whenever you want to claim the absence of white racism you site how well your black friends are doing but in order to justify white hostility toward blacks you claim that "blacks need to get their acts together". Hue, Madam CJ Walker was one of the richest Americans at the turn of the 20th Century. Did her success negate the fact that millions of blacks in America lived under the horrors of racial oppression.
=========================
Walker's success certainly did not negate the reality of her age's horrific white racism against black. She lived as a millionaire during the 1920s, when about 100 black men got lynched every year. In those days white-on-black crimes (rape, murder, assault, robbery) dominated black-on-white crime. Other concrete evidence existed for widespread, pervasive white racism, including explicit laws, private contracts, and official policies.
I have never "justified hostility" of whites against blacks; please cite one example. Perhaps you mean opposition to affirmative action?
Today is much different than the days of CJ Walker. Lynching rarely occurs, and when it does, whites rally against it. Black-on-white crime now dominates interracial crime stats. Despite evidence of some remaining secret, unofficial discrimination, blacks work everywhere doing everything, attend all schools, and live everywhere.
Black poverty is triple the white rate, but the impoverished population are not characterized by constructively acting people denied their due; rather, blacks who make the same life choices as whites and Asians ultimately achieve approximately the same results, though studies show discrimination about 20% of the time, in most areas of life. Obvious exceptions would include head coaching positions and national democratic offices.
The examples of my extensive network of friends over the years does not contradict massive evidence of racism, but rather confirms that unlike generations ago, black folks today hold their futures in their own hands.
There you go again.
"Black-on-white crime now dominates interracial crime stats."
Sorry, I don't accept this. Blacks who harm whites are overwhelmingly more likely to be convicted and jailed than vice versa..
I've personally seen too many incidents of whites harming blacks and getting off scot free.
The most egregious is a case right here in Maryland from 3 years ago that some black attorney friends are still agitating.
http://www.tightrope.cc/news/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=59
And aren't whites who deny perfectly qualified blacks employment, loans, and homes because of racial prejudice commiting a crime against those people?
Still happens every day of the week.
"Despite evidence of some remaining secret, unofficial discrimination, blacks work everywhere doing everything, attend all schools, and live everywhere."
No they don't Hue.
Most white people libe in monochromatic neighborhoods and work overtime to keep it that way.
A good friend of mine who has been in real estate for 30 years told me that whenever you see several "For Sale" signs in white suburban neighborhoods, you can almost bet a limb that a black family just moved in.
"I have never "justified hostility" of whites against blacks; please cite one example."
You did say to me on the Republican Brother blog that if blacks don't want white to think ill of them, blacks need to "get their acts together".
The brazen arrogance of that remark still stuns me.
You also claimed that blacks are more problematic than whites or Asians.
What is that if not justifying or rationalizing ill will toward blacks..
Steve: I agree that whites discriminating against blacks is (and should be) a crime. But the crime stats I referenced are "street" crimes. For those, the ratio has reversed from the days of CJ Walker to today. Even if you assume that blacks get an average less fair deal in convictions, that was surely even more true in the 1920s than today, so at the very least a major trend is going the the other way. Do you really think that today more whites murder and assault blacks than the other way around?
As for neighborhoods, nearly all of my friends live in neighborhoods that are affluent, and these are white-majority neighborhoods, and all have several black families.
Whites being "hostile" to blacks is different that whites having a negative attitude towards blacks in general. All people have attitudes about other groups. If you look back at US white films from the 1940s and 50s you find that whites used to think of Asians (Indians and Chinese and Japaneses) as lazy, stupid, and poor.
That perception has changed. Whites now think of these people as smarter and harder working even than themselves! This is because of the actions of Asians, not that Asians ever deserved the initial perception.
The initial perception that whites had of blacks was also undeserved. Today some whites probably do have a negative overall impression of black people in general. I believe that this impression will reverse when black folks collectively raise their average game.
"That perception has changed. Whites now think of these people as smarter and harder working even than themselves! This is because of the actions of Asians, not that Asians ever deserved the initial perception."
No they don't Hue.
Not any whites or blacks I know.
Certain white bigots and outright white supremacists play the "Asian model minority" card to pit blacks and asians against each other, to attempt to discredit black charges of continued American racism, and finally because Asians are no threat to whites.
Despite all their so-called success, Asians still make less and accept less than similarly qualified whites.
Asians still are no politically mobilized or aggressive and they are still very small in actual American population numbers.
I believe that different groups on average are doing better jobs about some things than others at different times and places, and that all groups have the same average capabilities. Obviously whites as a group on average performed less than Arabs, Asians, and Africans in pre-ancient times (before 500 BC) and during the "middle ages (500 AD through 1500 AD).
In the US today I believe that Asians are on average making better choices than whites, both in terms of education and in committing street crimes.
Steve: My wife is hellbent on our driving to DC for a weekend visit this summer. When I do, I am going to invite you to meet us for fancy beers!
"In the US today I believe that Asians are on average making better choices than whites, both in terms of education and in committing street crimes."
This is insane.
The Asians are very small in number and the ones who were allowed to immigrate were already educated when they got here.
Like I said before, the darn dry cleaner on the corner when I lived in the Shaw section of DC during the early 90s was a chemical engineer by trade in his native homeland of Korea.
Then you contrast that with economic status of Vietnamese, Cambodian and Laotian boat people and their children.
For the most they are still struggling and living in large swaths of poverty.
Don't believe me?
Check for yourself.
http://www.answers.com/topic/southeast-asian-american
When you get to the DC drop me an e-mail and I'll give you my cellphone number.
We'll hook up.
I'm interested in meeting you and your wife.
vaughnfair@aol.com
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