"The neocons who are pushing a Clash of Civilizations are mirror-images of the terrorists that inspire their hyperbolic fear -- they are just as irrational and just as great a threat to our security."
Our friend, Josh Holland, is on the money again.
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This line says all about the writer's credability: "[Islam] is violent, but no more than any other religion."
His argument turn on that preposterous claim, which also takes the form so enthusiastically quoted by Nadir in his description: Bush's efforts in Iraq and Afganhistan are "mirror images" of the efforts of Hezbollah, Al Qaida, the Taliban, etc.
Except that if Bush wins, all the people in the affected countries will have absolute freedom to practice any or no religion (and even to lampoon any religion), express and own their ideas and bodies, and participate in their own government. If the other guys win, in any areas where they win, no people will have any freedom.
This current conflict indeed does not qualify for the heading, "Clash of Civilizations", which indicates two civilizations in contention. In the current conflict, only one side qualifies for this standard definition of "civilization":
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An advanced state of intellectual, cultural, and material development in human society, marked by progress in the arts and sciences, the extensive use of record-keeping, including writing, and the appearance of complex political and social institutions.
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Thus I stand by my title: "Islamic crusade against civilization." Partisans of this crusade invalidate any claim on "civilization" by any number of their chief operating principles, including execution of artists who depict Mohammad.
"Except that if Bush wins, all the people in the affected countries will have absolute freedom to practice any or no religion (and even to lampoon any religion), express and own their ideas and bodies, and participate in their own government. If the other guys win, in any areas where they win, no people will have any freedom."
And both Iraq and Afghanistan have errected Islamic governments, which in your own words puts them at odds with the rest of "civilization". You should be thrilled by that.
"An advanced state of intellectual, cultural, and material development in human society, marked by progress in the arts and sciences, the extensive use of record-keeping, including writing, and the appearance of complex political and social institutions."
There is no doubt in the mind of any reasonable observer that both Iraq and Afghanistan fit this definition prior to the uncivil invasion of Western hordes. That you contend those people lack "civilization" in spite of the facts that they practice a religion that gave us algebra and the European Rennaisance is an example of your ignorance, racism and religious intolerance.
"Partisans of this crusade invalidate any claim on "civilization" by any number of their chief operating principles, including execution of artists who depict Mohammad."
US corporations have failed to destroy the livelihood of The Dixie Chicks for their courage to speak out. You yourself lambasted right wing critics of the Assassination film.
As your fellow Libertarian Bill Maher pointed out this weekend, Christian religious radicals would gladly revert to the stoning of gays and women who perform abortion if given the opportunity.
"As your fellow Libertarian Bill Maher pointed out this weekend, Christian religious radicals would gladly revert to the stoning of gays and women who perform abortion if given the opportunity."
Sorry. Women who RECEIVE abortions or the doctors who perform them.
My outrage flies faster than my editing skills sometimes...
Nadir: Maher took a snipe at Muslims, not christians, with his comment. Following ther interpretation of christianity, they accept homos (but don't want them to marry or adopt children) and merely seek to illegalize abotion (imprisioning the doctors, but not the women). Maher presented christianity as holding these people back, and offered islam as a faith that would enable them to kill these people.
And as I have always clearly understood, Nadir: the people of Iraq and Afganistan and Iran at various previous times did assemble themselves as civilizations, including times when Europeans did not. But that time passed long ago.
Why do you keep thinking that Iraqis invented algebra after they had been conquered by the islamic empire and had Islam imposed on them? Iraqis invented algebra (and digital numerology and perhaps written language itself; several non-honkey civilizations make that claim) long before Moses, Jesus, or Mohammad.
You are mixing up two different Iraqi civillizations seperated by thousands of years. A muslim-Iraqi civilization did exist. That civilization rescued Europe from its dark ages by saving all the great Greek books, which Roman, honkey barbarians, and mongel invaders were destroying. The Irish also protected those books, though some historians directly credit the survival of those books to Iraqis. That muslim civilization did not execute homos, fluzies, or even heretics (so your dad, mom, and me would have been as safe there as we are today in the US); it also tolerated the religious practices of christians and jews. Yes, it was a civilization.
Today's US is, sadly, an imperfect civilization. The commercial attack on the Dixie Chicks represents retardation, but not nearly as severe a retardation as those ankle-bearing, uppity broads would experiance in any muslim country. The lame and ineffective private boycott of them stands in illustrative contrast to the daily terror faced previously by Salmon Rushdie and currently by Theo Van Gohg (ended byy a knief in chest) and his friend, the Dutch Samoli clitoros amputee and escaped slave.
A comparassion of the reaction of US "right wingnuts" to the Dixie Chicks, the Bush assassination film (failed boycotts), and that muslim air traveler with an Arabic slogan (denied bording without hiding T-shirt) with the islamic crusader reaction to Vincent Van Gogh's film (kniefe in chest), his Samoli ex-muslim friend and film star (death threat attached to that kniefe), and the Mohamad cartoonists (deadly riots calling for executions) tells all about this issue.
Although pagan Iraqis invented algebra and modern numerals (among many other contributions of what was then earth's leading civilization), the contributions to civilizations of muslim Iraqis occured during a time where these muslims produced such things as paintings of Mohamad. Islam no more "gave us" the contributions of those Iraqis than did Christianity "give us" Gallileo's "Principles" or Newton's Treatises.
I do not know if honkies ever successfully invaded Iraq and Afganistan during times when those areas were civilized... unless you count Alexander's invasion, which resulted as a reaction to a few centuries of the Iranians (Persians then) trying without success to invade and conquer Europe (as for example Persia's near-success at the battle of Marathon). During Alexander's conquest those Persians enjoyed a violent rule over both Iraq (Iraq famous original, algebra-creating civilization had long since fallen) and Afgahnistan, so the honkies were invading Persia's civilization (brutal and colonial as *that* was!).
As always, your charges against me of "ignorance, racism and religious intolerance" reflect only your own ignorance (of my plain and detailed reverntial acknowledgement previously many times of all these facts of Arabic and Islamic achievements in civilization, even to the point of correcting your beliefe that algebra was invented after Mohammad's birth in 632ad, rather than about 2,000 years before), racism (you only accuse honkies of racism, and do so when such a person criticizes a non-white people, while permitting anybody to criticize honkeys), and religious intolerance (equating contemporary mild christian religious practices that includes toleration of other religions, with brutal islamic practices that excludes freedom of humans to choose other religions, no religion, or anti-religion).
One thing that the Islamic civilization (there was one!) achieved was a brutal conquest of southern Europe. All civillizations until very recently engaged in bloody conquest, including all the black civilizations celebrated in the Anhieser-Bush "Great Kings of Africa" calander.
http://www.ucs.louisiana.edu/~sxw8045/history.htm
Primer on the history of Algebra.
Pagan Babalonians (Iraqis) made essential contributions to algebra. Some scholars credit them also with the first written language using an alphabet; others credit Asian Indians. A halmark of this civilization was the "hanging gardens of Babalonia", one of the "Ancient Wonders of the World."
Muslim Arabs also made important contributions to algebra, during the second and last time that Iraq enjoyed civilization.
None of this is new to me. I have never suffered under the misimpression that only honkies have ever known civilization. But I have previously suffered under the impression that only honkey civilizations included slavery, rape, subjugation, dictatorship, invasion, conquest, racism, classism, genderism, severe religious retardation, xenophobia, eradication of other culture and language, imposition of culture and language, colonialism, genocide, and injustice.
Signing off now. Watching a documentary on how the Hungarian king "Vlade the Impaller" in the 1500s defended his kingdom from repeated bloody invassions of conquest by the muslim civilization.
Vlad is one origin of the Dracula legend.
"The Babylon System is a vampire. Sucking the blood of the sufferah."
"Building church and university. Deceiving the people continually.
Graduating theives and murderers.
They suckin' the blood of the sufferah.
Tell the children the truth!"
- Bob Marley, "Babylon Sytem"
Not an indictment of Islam...
And yet more Jamacians move to and live in this evil, racist US than live in Jamacia. Your response has only confused me as to your position. Do you have a factual, logical response? Do you now retract your charactoriztion of my view of Islam as "racist" and "ignorant" and "intollerant"?
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