2007-01-08

And for the Anti-Affirmative Action Folks...

From LastChocolateCity.com:

Smarting from the sting of globalization and the loss of those good ole’ industrial wage jobs, Michigan voted to end affirmative action. Voters said ‘no more preferential treatment.’

Yet, can the majority of Michigan deal with this new world order? Can white America really deal in a merit based world? One day soon, affirmative action could have saved your behind.

29 comments:

Paul Hue said...

Nadir: Your post is a commentary on the NYT article that I posted. And your commentary presents info that I have already presented numerous times, including the fact that the honkey girl who got denied by UM-Ann Arbor, although we are 100% certain she is correct that "if she were black" she would have gotten admitted under AA, without AA she would *NOT* have been admitted: instead a white or (more likely) Asian applicant would have gotten admitted.

I had also pointed out previously in my anti-AA posts that under AA, Asians are restricted because too many of them are doing well; without AA, whites could lose admissions seats because even whites are failing to keep up with Asian academic excellence. In other words, AA has keep white admissions artificially boosted at the expense of runaway Asian admissions.

Anybody who opposed AA because they wanted to keep white admissions boosted regardless of white achievement are racists and ignorant of many important facts.

The tone of the commentary you posted, and your own post, indicates the usual incorrect assumption about widespread racism amongst whites.

Paul Hue said...

We'll see if the anti-AA crowd really is racist. If they now start a campaign to hold down Asian student populations, that would indicate racism.

Nadir said...

I posted a quote from the Last Chocolate City article.

Jennifer Gratz and Thomas Sowell are against Affirmative Action for different reasons. I do think the reason most of Michigan voted to abolish affirmative action is because in an economically depressed climate, people want to eliminate any perceived advantage that any other group possesses. Many whites in Michigan (a notoriously racist state) will vote this way every time whether they will admit it or not.

This is a blue-collar state that for years worked to keep unions, plants and neighborhoods segregated. Though Paul doesn't see a racial divide here through the blinders he keeps firmly in place, I do. You only have to look at the racial composition of the state or look at posts on sites like this one:

From http://www.city-data.com/forum/michigan/15856-why-would-anyone-want-move-michigan-2.html

"My grandparents were also natives of the city of Detroit. They share stories with me about what a great city it used to be...until all the blacks moved in. Once they started going to Detroit in droves (for manufacturing jobs), they city started going to the toilet. That's when white flight took place and the white people ran for the suburbs. The bottom line (and argue it any way you want but it's the truth) is that the black people turned the city of Detroit into an rotten crime ridden place that white people are afraid to drive their car through. It's such a shame. My grandparents were born and raised there and are too afraid to drive their car through there now to see the street they grew upon! Why? Blacks committing crimes, burning down the city, stealing, robbing, etc. Sad shame what they have done to that city."

I think Paul is mistaken if he believes most white people want Blacks to be successful so they can buy from their businesses. I think most Americans in general only care about themselves. In a competitive environment, they only care about how they can beat the next guy.

Though Michigan's college admission rates show no proof that minorities have an advantage of any kind over whites, Prop 2 passed in every county except Wayne (where most of the Black folks live) and Washtenaw (where mostly intelligent liberal whites live). Whites in Michigan have done their best to isolate Blacks and refuse to admit that the economy of Detroit affects the whole state.

Paul may not be racist, but the person next door to him who, like Paul, voted to end affirmative action probably did so for different reasons.

Nadir said...

It is the lack of economic opportunity for all Michigan residents that curently has this state depressed. It is the lack of educational opportunities for all residents which will keep it depressed and make it worse. We need to find MORE ways to improve education in Michigan. We do not need to eliminate opportunity whether the reasons for those opportunities are misguided or not.

Racism is still rampant in this state. Until then affirmative action should not be eliminated.

However, I hope now Blacks will take it upon themselves to realize that we have to work with each other to improve the education and economic opportunities of our communities ourselves. The Detroit Public School board should be recalled and the superintendent fired. Educational and economic reforms should be the top priority.

Paul Hue said...

Nadir writes: ==========
Though Michigan's college admission rates show no proof that minorities have an advantage of any kind over whites
=======================

Then you haven't read my posts, which show clearly that about 90% of the blacks admitted to UM-AA under Affirmative Action would not had they been white, and that for many combinations of HS GPAs and SAT scores, 100% of blacks got admitted and 0% of Asians and white got admitted. Who is "wearing blinders" here?

Paul Hue said...

Nadir: I see nothing racist in the quotation that you wrote above, and no indication in it that its honkey author doesn't want black people in Detroit who are causing all these problems to stop, and the behave productively. Nowhere does that author indicate a belief that black folks are inherently prone to crime and the other behaviors that have damaged Detroit. He merely recognizes the facts, which I posted a few days ago here, showing that in the US today, in most categories of crime, blacks are making poor choices at rates many times greater than their fraction of the population, and at rates many times higher than other groups.

http://reformedleftist.blogspot.com/2007/01/factual-black-white-crime-stats.html#links

Again, I perceive you to be wearing the blinders here. Whose conduct drove our friend Lee to vacate Detroit?

Paul Hue said...

Nadir: Please justify your claim that "Racism is still rampant in this state". Please describe your last experience with this "rampant racism." If it is rampant, I assume that you experience quite frequently. If not, how is it rampant?

Paul Hue said...

Nadir wrote: =======================
I think Paul is mistaken if he believes most white people want Blacks to be successful so they can buy from their businesses. I think most Americans in general only care about themselves. In a competitive environment, they only care about how they can beat the next guy.
======================================

Not only do you have a misperception of what goes on the minds of most white people, you misperceive economics. If I only care about myself, I want the fewest number of people trying to jack my car and burgle my home, and I want the minimum amount of money needed to insure my home and fund a police and correctional system. Thus even a selfish person wants the highest possible fraction of other people to devote themselves to productive lives.

As a business person, I want the most people making the most money so that I can sell the most cups of coffee, cars, and soda pops. I do not win by "beating the next guy", but rather by convincing "the next guy" to patronize me. And the wealthier that guy is, and the less time he spends in prison or trying to rob me and my patrons, the more money I can make.

The only "next guy" I want to "beat" is my competitors, but again, I only "beat" him by attracting as many people as my customers as possible, and my competitor and I share an interest in our metro area being as wealthy and crime-free as possible.

Paul Hue said...

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/williams012903.asp

Here's just some of the facts that have managed to elude Nadir, enabling to make the incorrect comment, "Though Michigan's college admission rates show no proof that minorities have an advantage of any kind over whites."

UM-AA divides assigns students to categories based on a combination of high school GPA and SAT score. I haven't found the complete data for this; somewhere I've seen for various years the full data, which is devistating. This one commentary refers to one of these categories for one year, wherein 100% of blacks in the category got accepted, and less than 10% of whites. Thus just in this one case we get a an advantage of 10x!

This article also references how UM-AA's former admission practice awarded 16 points for a perfect SAT score, but 20 points for "being black"!

I say that if Asians can do it without these sorts of accommodations, and if black athletes can do it without these sorts of accommodations, black folks can DO IT!

Nadir, please explain and justify your comment.

Nadir said...

Paul, how many whites were excluded from U of M because Blacks were admitted? How many whites were excluded because children of U of M alumni or disabled students were included?

The MCRI argument doesn't make sense.

Nadir said...

We have also seen that in California African-American enrollment at UCLA is declining because of the elimination of affirmative action. We will see similar numbers in Michigan.

Do you want to know why? Because though affirmative action has ended in colleges and universities, no changes have been made to improve elementary or secondary education in the states to counter balance this. No changes have been made to improve economic conditions in the inner cities.

The problems of Black students have little to do with race and more to do with economics. The racial implications come from a history of discrimination that Paul knows all too well.

Discrimination and racism aren't an excuse, but they haven't disappeared. It's too early to throw affirmative action out.

But most white folks in Michigan don't care about equality unless they believe it is them who is being treated unequally.

Nadir said...

We know that racism is rampant in the state. If it weren't then why did a majority of whites vote to end programs that could help eliminate inequality?

If it isn't rampant, why does the American Nazi Party use a PO Box in Westland?

If it isn't rampant, why does the Southern Poverty Law Center list 25 different hate groups in Michigan?

If it isn't rampant, why does insurance redlining still exist?

Why do white people flee Detroit after a Red Wings game or a Lions game?

Why are white suburban kids afraid to go into the city?

They have been taught that Detroit is a dangerous place.

For sure there are places that I wouldn't go very often, but that is because there are poor people there. I also know many a Black guy who won't drive to my house in Westland for fear of the Westland or Livonia police.

I also know that a lot of Blacks and whites are racist against Arabs in Michigan. The place is the most racially divided place I have ever been, and I grew up in Tennessee.

Nadir said...

"Not only do you have a misperception of what goes on the minds of most white people, you misperceive economics. If I only care about myself, I want the fewest number of people trying to jack my car and burgle my home, and I want the minimum amount of money needed to insure my home and fund a police and correctional system. Thus even a selfish person wants the highest possible fraction of other people to devote themselves to productive lives."

You're out of your mind if you think that Michigan is the capitalist utopia that you pretend it is. Most people only care about themselves.

White people in Jackson make money from the correctional system, so it is advantageous for them to have a tough on crime policy and to have a poor education system in Detroit. Other white folks moved to Macomb and Livingston County to get away from the Black people in Detroit because they believed their property values would go down. They will move out again when rich Blacks move into those neighborhoods.

Our friend Lee didn't move to Ypsilanti to get away from Black people. He moved from Detroit to get out of his crime infested neighborhood. He was looking for a house near me, but found the place in Ypsi first. Why would he want to move near me if he is running from Black folks? Why would he move closer to Jon Robinson, a Black rapper who lives in Ypsi?

And besides, Lee hates Ypsi now. He would rather be in Detroit closer to his people. He was run out of his neighborhood by poor crackheads who happen to be Black. If he moved into a trailer park in Monroe, he would likely be run out by poor redneck meth addicts who happen to also be racist.

Paul, you ignore the political aspects of economics because it doesn't fit your utopian capitalist worldview. I understand economics and I understand that American prejudices sometimes cloud their judgement.

Isn't this why you still support the failing Iraq war? Hasn't that worked our marvelously for you?

Paul Hue said...

Nadir: I agree with you on one concept, which is what I believe that you might have meant when you stated incorrectly denied "proof that minorities have an advantage of any kind over whites." The facts clearly explode that claim, but they do support the following statement (which is perhaps what you meant): Affirmative Action does not place whites at any disadvantage.

As I pointed out numerous time in my anti-AA advocacy: anyone who believe that ending AA will result in whites having more seats at elite universities, jobs at big companies, or more govt contracts (the only situations where AA plays a significant role) are mistaken. I have stated clearly that the white girl who sued UM would *still* been rejected if AA didn't exist; without AA, those seats would have gone to other applicants (most likely Asian) with better credentials than her. It is true that *with* AA, her credentials provided 100% acceptance for applicants "checking the African American box" and 0% for those "checking the honkey box."

One need only look around any large company that employs AA to see that very few jobs have gone to AA-qualifying people, at least in the professional ranks. However, "minorities" who do *not* qualify for AA -- Asians! -- they flourish! And do so without no stinkin' AA.

Paul Hue said...

Nadir wrote: =================
We know that racism is rampant in the state. If it weren't then why did a majority of whites vote to end programs that could help eliminate inequality?
==============================

These are the best reasons you can imagine for justifying your "rampant racism" claim? Of course they are! Because you claim is false. Voting against AA certainly does not equate with anti-black racism: believing that blacks are inherently inferior, or should be denied full citizenship or any other rights afforded others.

====the American Nazi Party use a PO Box in Westland?============
Yes, in a Westland that is becoming increasingly black, and with zero racist incidents even reported by you.

=====Southern Poverty Law Center list 25 different hate groups in Michigan?====
Again, and with you and your wife, and my children and friends, coming and going with zero problems, all in not only a state that SPLC claims as 25 hate groups, but in the very city housing the US Nazi party! Your stats certainly disprove your own claim!

==========why does insurance redlining still exist?=====================
For entirely non-racist reasons. The insurance companies draw a "red line" around areas with remarkably high rates of property crimes. Can you show me white areas with the same high crimes that the insurance agencies fail to "red line"?

====white people flee Detroit after a Red Wings game or a Lions game?============
For exactly the same non-racist reasons that BLACK FOLKS ARE FLEEING DETROIT! In fact, of the 100k residents fleeing every year, the overwhelming now are black. But of the 10k or so moving into Detroit, most are white!

======== white suburban kids afraid to go into the city===========
For the same non-racist reasons that many blacks are: they fear areas of high crime! Forget for a moment that these white subburban kids are leading the influx of new Detroit residents, and just show me where these same white kids who fear Detroit happily enter and frolic in all-white areas with similar rates of crime.

=============They have been taught that Detroit is a dangerous place.==========
The same lesson that black suburbanites teach their own kids, and based on non-racist FACTS of much higher crime!

Nadir, your alleged evidence in support of your claim of "rampant racism in Michigan" serves to very convincingly disprove that claim! No wonder so many blacks from around the world move annually to the US, and none ever leave!

Paul Hue said...

Nadir wrote: ===========
Our friend Lee didn't move to Ypsilanti to get away from Black people. He moved from Detroit to get out of his crime infested neighborhood. He was looking for a house near me, but found the place in Ypsi first. Why would he want to move near me if he is running from Black folks?
=========================

The same reason that white folks have fled; like Lee, they are not fleeing black people, they are fleeing crime. Specifically, crimes committed by black people, however.

===========If he moved into a trailer park in Monroe, he would likely be run out by poor redneck meth addicts who happen to also be racist.=================

The same white folks moving out of Detroit would also flee the crime of trailer parks.

Please explain to me anything that you are trying to do with your life in Michigan that you cannot because of anti-black white racism.

Paul Hue said...

So you, Nadir, believe that when black and white folks flee from Detroit, they do so for completely different reasons. When Lee gets robbed and moves it's "to get away from crime" (because he's black!), but when a white person gets robbed and moved it's "to get away from even law-abiding black folks" (because he's white).

I reckon that makes you a racist, Nadir, as you can't figure out people's motivations unless you know what "race" category to assign them. Very sad.

Paul Hue said...

...and once you have assigned the person, you assume that you know his/her motivation!

Paul Hue said...

Nadir writes: =================
White people in Jackson make money from the correctional system, so it is advantageous for them to have a tough on crime policy and to have a poor education system in Detroit.
===============================

1. Lots of black folks in Jackson profit from that system as well.

2. Many more people -- black and white -- would make more money from a prosperous and safe Detroit than the few who profit from a poor and unsafe Detroit. That avalanche in Colorado made money for rescue workers. But would Colorado as a whole do better if the entire even more people got knocked off mountains, of so many got knocked off mountains that people stopped touring Colorado?

Nadir said...

Paul, your problem is that you believe racism doesn't exist because no one has burned a cross on your lawn.

"Many more people -- black and white -- would make more money from a prosperous and safe Detroit than the few who profit from a poor and unsafe Detroit."

I agree, but racist suburban Michiganders don't see it that way. If they did, you wouldn't have seen Republican election ads accusing State Senate candidate Glenn Anderson of favoring Detroit over the suburbs and pandering to his political bosses in Detroit.

Michiganians don't care about the violence in Detroit if they don't have to live there or visit there. Your idealism is admirable, but you really overestimate your fellow suburbanites.

Nadir said...

Additionally suburbanites don't care about the poverty in Detroit or the failing Detroit public schools because they believe it doesn't affect them. The problem is they are wrong.

Businesses don't come to Michigan because Detroit is in bad shape. If the state's financial hub was in better condition, we could attract more outside business and more jobs.

However, white folks in the suburbs mostly talk about Detroit's problem being that it has a lot of black folks who bring crime and poverty with them.

My belief is that poverty is the cause of crime. You say that black folks are the cause of crime. Who is the racist?

Nadir said...

"Lots of black folks in Jackson profit from that system as well."

What the hell are you talking about? There aren't "lots" of black folks in Jackson. Most of the black population there is behind bars. How are they profiting?

Nadir said...

"So you, Nadir, believe that when black and white folks flee from Detroit, they do so for completely different reasons. When Lee gets robbed and moves it's "to get away from crime" (because he's black!), but when a white person gets robbed and moved it's "to get away from even law-abiding black folks" (because he's white)."

You're wrong. Lee didn't leave Detroit until AFTER he got robbed. Most white folks moved out of Detroit when the black folks moved into their neighborhood because they were AFRAID of being robbed, though they never were.

You can argue like a scientist who wants like samples for his studies if you want, but the bottom line is, most whites and blacks have moved away from Detroit for different reasons. Whites moved to get away from black folks. Blacks would rather live around black folks, but moved away to get away from poverty and crime.

Poverty among Blacks was brought on by the history of racism and discrimination in the country. It is continued by the classist and racist education and justice systems.

The white folks who criticized your family for not moving out of the neighborhood in Austin did so because they didn't like blacks. I'd imagine most of them moved before their houses were robbed.

The same is true in Michigan. Whites will only want to regentrify Detroit if they can banish Blacks to the Eastside or to Inkster.

Why are you pretending this isn't true?

Six, help me out...

Paul Hue said...

Nadir writes: ========================
Paul, your problem is that you believe racism doesn't exist because no one has burned a cross on your lawn.
========================================

Nadir, your problem is that no matter how many times I admit to the existence of anti-black racism in the US, you always make this claim just because I oppose AA and believe that despite the remaining racism in the US, skin color no longer represents a significant obstacle in black folks achieving their goals.

And I have had a cross burned on my lawn, several times, effectively, but not in the past 35 years. And neither have you.

Another problem that you have, Nadir, is that you make an assertion about racism that you cannot backup with any facts, even personal observations. Your very experiences (and lack of!) in Michigan, right in the official capital of the KKK and Nazi party, disproves your own claim.

Paul Hue said...

Nadir writes: =======================================
suburbanites don't care about the poverty in Detroit or the failing Detroit public schools because they believe it doesn't affect them. The problem is they are wrong.
======================================================

Suburbanites do care about both the poverty in Detroit and its failing school system. That's why they oppose Detroit's income tax and support school vouchers. Their active interest in opposing the super-corrupt Kwame (because they want Detroit to have a sensible and responsible mayor) perversily led many Detroiters to shoot themselves in their own foot and vote for Kwame, just to spite the honkies, whom they incorrectly assumed must have opposed him because he was good for Detroit.

One very wealthy white suburbanite even tried several times to spend 100 million bucks building and running schools in Detroit open to all kids, but the city council rebuffed him because they wanted to control the money, and didn't want him taking kids from their horrible system.

And consider the racial composition of the many thousands fleeing Detroit, and the few thousand moving in and building new businesses there.

Detroit has no better friends or cheerleaders than the honkies in the suburbs.

Paul Hue said...

Nadir writes: =============================
However, white folks in the suburbs mostly talk about Detroit's problem being that it has a lot of black folks who bring crime and poverty with them. My belief is that poverty is the cause of crime. You say that black folks are the cause of crime. Who is the racist?
=========================================

The suburbanites accurately recognize, as to black folks, that the criminals in Detroit are black. None claim that black folks have any natural predilection to commit crime. You and I share the view that "poverty rather than race causes crime", but you seem less inclined than I to believe that even impoverished people have the freedom to choose their own actions.

And I, unlike you, believe that poor black folks in the US who make good choices will have an excellent chance of achieving for themselves a stable and safe life of affluence in the US today. So ultimately I do blame criminals for their own actions, and I do blame them for ruining the neighborhoods that they share with people who do not make such choices.

I do not assign motivations based on my racial categorizations, unlike you, and this is why I am not a racist. I blame people for their own actions and choices, unless I can see some eternal force denying what would otherwise be the natural rewards of their smart choices. Detroit is doing poorly, and Detroit is mostly black, and I am convinced that if more black folks in Detroit made good choices, and if fewer made poor choices, that Detroit would thrive, and that there is nothing that anybody else outside of Detroit can (or even would try) do to stop such a success.

Thus I blame black folks for the failure of Detroit, just as I credit black folks with countless success stories both today and in the past. I do not regard black folks as super humans, capable only of success, and incapable of failure.

Paul Hue said...

Nadir wrote: ===================================
The white folks who criticized your family for not moving out of the neighborhood in Austin did so because they didn't like blacks. I'd imagine most of them moved before their houses were robbed.
===============================================

Yes, absolutely, 35+ years ago when the white folks in my neighborhood took violent and constant action in response to black folks moving in, they started with Black Family Number 1, well before waiting to see if any crime would occur. These white folks moved out because they hated blacks. Crime in black neighborhoods back in those days wasn't even very great, so I doubt if those honkies even associated blacks with crime.

So how do you explain why my own neighborhood today in Westland, MI -- home of the KKK and Nazi party -- has grown from a single black family to about 25% (including a mixed family: black man - very attractive white woman) without a single incident? I explain it easily: fighters for racial equality in the US won their war. I am very proud that my dad and mom fought in that war, and I did as well on the tail end.

Today blacks and whites flee from Detroit for the same reason: fleeing ignorance and depravity.

Paul Hue said...

Nadir writes: ========================
Whites will only want to regentrify Detroit if they can banish Blacks to the Eastside or to Inkster. Why are you pretending this isn't true?
======================================

Because I'm not pretending. Whites are already moving into Detroit, and doing so without banishing anybody.

Paul Hue said...

Nadir writes: ========================
You're wrong. Lee didn't leave Detroit until AFTER he got robbed. Most white folks moved out of Detroit when the black folks moved into their neighborhood because they were AFRAID of being robbed, though they never were.
=====================================

I agree that the honkies 50 - 30 years ago vacated before black society in Detroit deteriorated into one that includes much higher fractions of people committing crime, goofing off in school, and making illegitimate babies than other groups. Those honkies were racists, and their actions contributed to the deterioration of black society. However, black folks today possess the power to rectify the situation. Many individual blacks do this for themselves every day.

But honkies today are different than back then, just as black folks in general are different today than then. Back then the black rates of crime, academic performance, and two-parent families were similar to those of whites.